Recently, NRT Associate Editor Lauren Kleist had the opportunity to talk with singer/songwriter Andrew Greer and Dove Award-winning songwriter Ginny Owens. They were presented with an interesting topic: Comparing hymns with today's modern worship. The 40-minute conversation was so jam-packed, that we've divided this into a two part feature. If you haven't read Part 1, check that out first here. The following is the second part of their conversation.
Ginny, I'm not a musician so I don't know the science of this, but I notice a lot when I'm in church that, musically, a lot of the worship songs sound alike. Sometimes that tends to slightly annoy me because I feel like it cheapens things. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on this.
GO: One of the challenging things for me to get my head around while leading worship regularly has been how similar many songs are. Part of that is because we have a rule in commercial song writing--commercial songwriting meaning writing for commerce; writing for money. Everybody, whether they write Christian or country or pop or whatever, is familiar with the KISS method, which means, "Keep it simple and singable."
Part of the reason that worship songs sound alike is, in order to keep them simple and singable, they're going to start sounding similar. That's, the basic reason why that happens. You always need some up tempo stuff. Especially in church, you need up-tempo songs to get the service started. So a lot of those sound alike.
The Book of Psalms is full of content. There are only so many Psalms and there are quite a few more worship songs now than there are Psalms in the Bible, so you're going to hear the same certain phrases a lot.
I remember learning a particular song. The song was beautiful. I liked the song. I respected it. But I remember when I first learned it thinking, "This song has every phrase that's used in every other song," and they're not clichéd phrases. They're in the Bible, but I do think part of the reason that phrases are arguably overused is because you only have so many of them and people know that if the congregation can grasp onto that phrase and that simple idea, then they'll embrace it, and they'll sing it and they'll go with it.
When you're trying to make music accessible to the masses and singable for the masses, you tend to keep it very simple, but then it just starts sounding the same. Some people get out of the box, but I've had a few experiences where I thought, "Let's try this song in worship and see how it goes because it's a little different." But that's harder for people.
I think part of it is our culture too. Back in the day, when you only had hymns, you learned hymns because that's what you had to learn. Now if you can't pick it up in five seconds, or if it doesn't catch your attention in five seconds, then you're onto the next thing. I think we deal with that a little bit in worship as well. If it's not something that immediately excites people, then they're moving on, and that's not necessarily fair because it means that a song with a beautiful lyric and an intricate melody may get overlooked just because it doesn't catch you in the first couple of bars. That might be part of how our culture responds to things these days. I talk like I'm so old.
We're not only introducing new songs at a rapid pace and seeing what sticks kind of randomly, but also, with technology, we don't read out of hymn books anymore. Even though hymns at times have been a little bit melodically complex and maybe not the first thing that would catch the ear to remember, people would follow the hymn book, and even somebody who couldn't read music could follow a melody line or a note.
It's a different culture now, in general. It's not only the repetitiveness and how quickly songs get moved to the repertoire, but also there's not a melody shown up on the screen with the lyrics. You have to hear a new song several times before you're going to catch onto its melody.
I would say, even in leading worship, sometimes it's difficult. Sometimes it takes me several times with a song before I've got the melody down, and I'm the one leading it. That's one of the most frustrating parts. In leading a hymn, there's a melody that's typically very easy to gravitate towards because, dare I say it, it's interesting. Lots of times, in modern worship, the melodies are not that interesting. In fact they're often a little bit...well, monotone is not the right word, but they're not quite intriguing, musically, and that sometimes comes from the commercial appeal of it all. So they're naturally harder to grasp on the first or second listen. It's generally going to take a few more times.
So, Ginny, when do you think you'll be working on putting out this worship album?
GO: I'm actually writing for my next record right now, and we'll probably record that later this year. I imagine there'll be some songs on there that will be more worship-oriented, but I'm not yet going to go as far as to say I'm going to actually make a worship record. The Lord may have to pick me up and move me into the studio and lock the door and say, "You're doing a worship record." So I may be waiting for a little bit more of a sign to do that.
I'll say this. I feel that our spiritual act of worship as believers goes far deeper than what we sing and, yet, worshiping with our voices and our song is a way of telling our heavenly Father and telling our community—the people around us—what we believe and acknowledging those things and praising God.
I want to be reverent about that idea of making a worship record. If I were ever actually to do it, it would be something that would be very intentional, and it would be something that I would pray through and work really hard on collecting songs for—probably even more than I would for a typical record.
I would feel like it would be something different and something that would require a lot more struggling and time and effort and thought and prayer than just your typical average record, which does require plenty, but it's a different process. If I think of people possibly singing these songs to God and each other each week, I'd probably think, "I need to make sure that they say what they need to say on a whole different level."
So I don't know if that'll be the next thing that comes out, but there are a few songs that I've already written that I think lean towards worship and they'll probably be part of the next record.
I think this has been a really interesting conversation, especially because I have learned a little bit more about the hymns, which has piqued my interest and made me want to listen more. Thanks to both of you for doing that. Do either of you have any last thoughts about hymns as they compare to modern worship?
AG: I have one closing thought and then I'll let Ginny finish. I think it's not always a tug of war or a comparison. It's not a wrestling match about who's going to win—modern worship or hymns. I think music and the arts have always had a place in spiritual life. I am not God, so I can't choose or begin to move among certain musical pieces or numbers or aspects of music to accomplish my work or to glorify myself. I can only do what I can do and then allow God to use it and, again, some of this is just reiterating what we were saying about music being our act of worship. I can make a hymns record and encourage others to listen to songs that have affected me because I would assume that they might affect some other people in similar ways.
Since they've had such a profound impact, then I can only hope rejuvenating some of those hymns—bringing them out of the back catalog of the church and bringing them back to life--will have an impact as well. But, at the same time, who am I to say that "How Great Is Our God" is not a life changing song or a tool that God can use in His very mysterious ways to draw us to Himself? I do not understand how He does that, and I would not choose to try to understand or dictate how He does things for other people.
GO: I would definitely agree with that and I would say that, along the same lines, we never know what God is going to use to speak to people and we never know what kind of song He is going to use to share His truth or to lead them in worship or bring about worship in them.
So I would just encourage people to take the adventure on of learning. If you have only loved hymns all your life, learn some new worship songs. I know that's one fun thing that a lot of churches have to go through. Some people that have been in church for a long time only love hymns. They only love the things from the past.
It's about inviting those folks to experience modern worship songs. Also for those of us that have grown up on modern worship, we are invited to find hymns and listen to them and research them. Half of what's so interesting about a hymn, generally, is the story, either behind how it was written and the inspiration that it was written from or the story behind the person who wrote it or the biography of the person who wrote it.
When you research the history of some hymns, a lot of times you'll find that they were written by someone who was 22 years old and had some dreadful disease and couldn't get out of bed. Or they were in some war. It's crazy stuff that we know nothing about today. It's a different context in which a lot of those pieces of music were written.
You definitely have piqued my interest. I want to start researching some of that.
AG: It's the potency of their stories and how they wrote about their experiences with God in a way that wasn't meant for commercial appeal or for great design.
Hymns are more personal prayers, in a lot of instances. They're the songwriter's personal story and experience with God, written in such a beautiful language. I wonder sometimes if that's what we've lost in modern church music...the stories, the kind of personal nature, and the vulnerability that used to be felt and heard. I miss that in a lot of music that's designed for church culture today.
That's actually a great way to wrap this up I think. That's awesome. I want to thank each of you so much for talking with me today.
